tips on tunercat

[chargedformula]

i just got tunercat and was wondering if anyone has used it before. i have a LOT of learning to do with this thing, does anyone have any tips or tricks with it?

[Syclone0044]

Good luck.. I've been trying to learn the same stuff (GM OBDI chip tuning) for the last 2 years and its extremely daunting and intimidating. It's so complex I just didn't know where to start. Eventually I spent enough time with it and reading about it and looking at other systems, and other editors like GMPCM (very nice, www.gmpcm.com), and it started to make sense to me. I still haven't got to the point that I'm editing VE or spark tables, but I did significantly improve the idle on my 1990 Turbo Grand Prix along with a few easy changes like Lean Cruise and earlier WOT TCC Lockup MPH.

Not to be negative, but I consider myself an intelligent & patient person, and when I got into the chip tuning, I realized that anyone else looking to get into this will need a good understanding of vehicle performance, along with good troubleshooting skills and logical thinking/understanding, and a ton of patience to sit and tinker. As far as I'm concerned, Speed Density chip tuning for modified street cars is about as deep into hot-rodding as you can get. If you find anyone else local who is into it; keep us posted. So far the only guy I can think of in Southeast Wisconsin, is Dennis with the 700HP 95 LT1 Trans Am but he doesn't visit BCM anymore.

If you're serious about tuning and ready to make a real commitment in time & energy to doing this - I would recommend visiting any active messageboards you can find on the subject. www.thirdgen.org has a ton of articles/resources as well as an active messageboard, and www.gmpcm.com also has a more generic group of user forums (guys with all types of vehicles.)

[GTSLOW]

i just got tunercat and was wondering if anyone has used it before. i have a LOT of learning to do with this thing, does anyone have any tips or tricks with it?

Im about to get tunercat for my truck!

[PonyKiller87]

Glad Im not the only one thats been intimidated by this. I bought my AutoProm (programer/emulator) a couple of months ago and havent done anything yet. Everytime I sit down and start to get into it I get fustrated because theres so much info out there and none of it seems to say the same thing. Hopefully this winter I will find the time to get started.

If I remember correctly there is a program that can take your data loging and your bin and tell you what to change to improve performance, but it only works on the MAP cars which doesnt help me because my Iroc is MAF.

Syclone what equipment do you use? Pocket Programmer?

[Syclone0044]

Glad Im not the only one thats been intimidated by this. I bought my AutoProm (programer/emulator) a couple of months ago and havent done anything yet. Everytime I sit down and start to get into it I get fustrated because theres so much info out there and none of it seems to say the same thing. Hopefully this winter I will find the time to get started.

I would suggest starting with some easy stuff, like adjusting Constants and Flags. For example change the temperature your coolant fans come on at, perhaps if you adjusted the thermostat to a lower temp you needed this anyways. It's fun to make the first changes because you take it out for a test spin and can really tell the difference and you're like "Whoa.. I'm actually driving something that I programmed??"

If I remember correctly there is a program that can take your data loging and your bin and tell you what to change to improve performance, but it only works on the MAP cars which doesnt help me because my Iroc is MAF.

Perhaps Craig Moate's "VEFixer.xls"?? I looked at that and it sounded like a good idea for a baseline but at the same time I bet it's nothing close to something like the Hondata standalone auto-correction feature. (With that, supposedly you set the target AFR and drive around and the tune edits itself!)

Syclone what equipment do you use? Pocket Programmer?

The Pocket Programmer is the classic device, but it seemed way overkill for what I needed. Seems like a complete ultimate EEPROM programmer when I all I needed was something to burn chips to my very specific 29C256 or 29F040 (?) chips. I bought the Moate's BURN1 USB burner for $80 versus the PP2 which was $200 IIRC? The BURN1 works great. I got it at www.moates.net. It's so small and since it's self-powered by USB I could actually burn a chip at the dragstrip or wherever. I registered GMPCM because it seemed to have the best and most complete interface of all the software. Tunercat looked like a Windows 3.1 program to me (I used to be a Windows programmer so it was easy to tell that it was very old GUI code). GMPCM also had a ton of definitions, including the obvious ones for my TGP and Syclone, but also definitions for common cars like a 3.1L N/A Cavalier; so I can look at the later year tunes that GM made for those cars and apply that back to my turbocharged 3.1L TGP (it really works! Lots of useful updates).

Anyways, not to dog on Tunercat, because most of the experienced Syclone/Typhoon chip-tuning guys I've seen are using that, or a combo of Tunercat and "Promgrammer" which is a Java-based SyTy chip editor program. I am probably the only SyTy guy using GMPCM to edit chips because it's relatively new.

I use Datamaster to datalog, which is the other crucial part of my tuning equation. Datamaster (www.ttspowersystems.com) has versions for most popular OBDI cars including 94-95 LT1s if I recall correctly. Datamaster is probably the best software I have ever used in any hot-rodding. If I owned vehicles of a different brand, and saw how good Datamaster is, I would actually consider buying vehicles of the GM brand just to be able to tune with Datamaster. It's that good (compared to all the other stuff).

Finally and this is just "For what it's worth", I got a chance to start tuning the notorious standalone "F.A.S.T." system and I will say from all the glorious reviews and praiseful comments I have always heard about it, and all the people who say "Screw this chip stuff! I'm UPGRADING to a FAST System!!!", I really thought it was gonna be great. I really thought it would easily do all the things that are difficult on the GM ones. Not so! I think the FAST system sucks! --- FOR A STREET CAR.. It is actually very simple and primitive, a GM late 1980's stock computer is far more sophisticated, but the simplicity of the FAST system is what makes it "easy" in the sense that, the other stuff just ISNT there to even be changed! For example there aren't any torque converter lockup tables for an automatic transmission. They have none of the extra tables that a street car needs to adjust for all these various scenarios where you're pulling a boat up a mountain at high altitude in cold weather, etc. Or you start your engine on an ultra cold day. Or you are idling in hot weather and turn on the A/C and want both radiator fans turned on and the idle to raise by 100 RPM to avoid stalling. etc. Race cars don't need any of that stuff, and if a race car stalls, the driver just restarts it. On a street car, even one stall in traffic would be unacceptable to the average driver.

The FAST system's interface and especially the datalogger are EXTREMELY primitive compared to anything like Datamaster. In fact Datamaster compared to the FAST datalogger is like comparing Windows 95 to an Atari 2600. Both can crunch numbers, but one is so much more advanced and lets you be so much more productive. I think FAST is coming out with a new system, I haven't seen it yet but maybe it is more advanced.

Anyhow - just wanted to offer some insight in case you were wondering what other race cars are using. I think the FAST might be good if your car has a very specific mode of operation like a race car. For a street car, it's a pretty big compromise in my opinion. (But again, which is going to be easier to program? Windows 95, or an Atari 2600?)

[PonyKiller87]

Well right now things are a little crazy for me because Im in the process of buying a house, but in about 2 months we should get together and you can give us some pointers and kinda help us get started. The new house has a huge garage so I can supply the space and some beer or whatever if your willing to share some knowledge.

[Syclone0044]

Well right now things are a little crazy for me because Im in the process of buying a house, but in about 2 months we should get together and you can give us some pointers and kinda help us get started. The new house has a huge garage so I can supply the space and some beer or whatever if your willing to share some knowledge.

Who else is interested (you said "us") and what cars do you have? What computers? I am no expert whatsoever on chip tuning yet but I would be willing to put our heads together.

[BAD LS1]

Heh... you guys should take a peek at HP tuners or LS1 Edit operatiing systems for OBDII once if you want overwhelming!

Ive been playing the OBDII flash game for 3 years now and kinda got a good grasp of what it takes to make them run right and make them perform as expected but there is soo much other stuff in there i never even touched and wonder what it does.... How the hell does some engineer sit and think of all this stuff in the first place is what i often ask my self !!

But yeah on a late model car with OBDII anyway its really pointless to "upgrade" to a FAST system... its insane how much the factory computer can do, and its more powerful and faster than most home PC's. Now that 2 and 3 bar maps can be added into the mix on a PCM that never had it in the first place, the possibilities with forced induction tuning are now endless.

But i agree with Josh, those FAST systems are useless to me and provide just "bare bones" EFI control. FAST has alot of useless products IMHO.. (Cough) LSX intake and TB'S (End Cough)

Any way back to OBDI talk...

[PonyKiller87]

Well its mainly my car, but Mark (sparkyballz) and Tyler (Monster...?) want their trucks done to, they have the 88-95 TBI 350.

I already bought the Autoprom, and 2 complete setups for the multiple bin/program. If you got to Moates web page you can see what Im talking about. The cool part about the autoprom is the emulation, test and tune on the fly. As far as tunercat goes, its seems to have come along ways since the early days like a few years ago when I looked at it, I also got the RT version of it when I got the autoprom.


BAD LS1, a common swap for the thirgen guys like me is to do a little re pining of the harness and switch to the syclone ecm because it has the boost referencing built into it. Then when you put on a supercharger or turbo you dont need to depend on a vacuum.boost controled fuel pressure regulator to keep things going right.

[GTSLOW]

Heh... you guys should take a peek at HP tuners or LS1 Edit operatiing systems for OBDII once if you want overwhelming!

Ive been playing the OBDII flash game for 3 years now and kinda got a good grasp of what it takes to make them run right and make them perform as expected but there is soo much other stuff in there i never even touched and wonder what it does.... How the hell does some engineer sit and think of all this stuff in the first place is what i often ask my self !!

But yeah on a late model car with OBDII anyway its really pointless to "upgrade" to a FAST system... its insane how much the factory computer can do, and its more powerful and faster than most home PC's. Now that 2 and 3 bar maps can be added into the mix on a PCM that never had it in the first place, the possibilities with forced induction tuning are now endless.

But i agree with Josh, those FAST systems are useless to me and provide just "bare bones" EFI control. FAST has alot of useless products IMHO.. (Cough) LSX intake and TB'S (End Cough)

Any way back to OBDI talk...

You got any time on tunercats? I'm gonna need a lil help once I get mine going. Gotta switch from 19lb to 26lb injectors, and mabye a mild tune for the intake/cam/heads.

[BAD LS1]

You got any time on tunercats? I'm gonna need a lil help once I get mine going. Gotta switch from 19lb to 26lb injectors, and mabye a mild tune for the intake/cam/heads.

Nope.... your truck is OBDII anyway!?! the computer has to be flashed like mine...

[GTSLOW]

Nope.... your truck is OBDII anyway!?! the computer has to be flashed like mine...

Yes it's OBDII but doesnt need to be flashed anymore!!

I can't wait to get my tunercats

[GTSLOW]

Just got an email from TunerCat and they said it is now available for sale for the following vehicles!

Just as the title says, TC's new OBD2 tuner is available NOW for the following trucks and cars:
Trucks:

1996 - 1997 Vortec Trucks (4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L, 7.4L)
1998 - 2000 Vortec Trucks (4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L, 7.4L)
1999 - 2000 LS1 Trucks (4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L, 8.1L)
2001 - 2002 LS1 Trucks (4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L, 8.1L)
2003 - 2005 LS1 Trucks (4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L, 8.1L)


Cars:

1996 - 1997 Camaro/Firebird/Corvette LT1
1999 - 2001 Camaro/Firebird/Corvette LS1
2002 - 2003 Camaro/Firebird/Corvette LS1
2004 Corvette/GTO


OBDII Tuner Program on CD
OBDII/RS232 Interface
OBDII Cable
RS232 Cable
Your choice of one Vehicle Definition File
....maybe we need to get a group purchase going for this guys?


Also found this on the LS1 Tech site:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showt...hlight=TunerCat

Here is what it will edit!

http://james.jaguar.net/kctrading/Cal_Parameters.pdf

[Syclone0044]

Hey chargedformula and PonyKiller87, how'd you guys ever make out with your chip editing? I dove into some timing table and idle fuel VE adjustments on my Syclone this weekend and the whole process is a real pain in the ass. It took me about 2 hours just to go from the "editing on computer screen" part until the "test driving the chip on the road" part... I wanted to go to GLD on Sunday but it took so long I ran out of time. (It rained anyways in the early afternoon so I guess it was just as well.)

I would idle the truck on the new chip and it would intermittently drop the ECM connection like every 30 seconds, as if someone was pulling the power to the ECM just for an instant. It'd reset the values in my datalogger as if the engine had just been started from key-off. I had to reburn the chip like 4 times until it would even idle solid and then on the test drive it cut out on one of the programs (multichip).

I also take back what I said a few months ago, the Moates BURN1 only works so-so, seemed like the software has a bug, I put the chip in and half the time it can't detect the device or says error programming, so you have to jerk around and try to erase the chip or reprogram it a bunch of times and restart and reconnect it until it FINALLY fukking connects and programs it. Furthermore the GMPCM software that I spoke so highly of, has a number of inaccuracies in its $58 Syclone ECM definition :.. I found the 4400 RPM row in the F1 Main Spark Advance table was missing altogether and the 1800 RPM row doesn't actually exist . Just a handful of stupid things like that. Hard to tune when the standards you're relying upon are suspicious... wouldn't you say?

Changing the chips is such a pain in the ass , I really need to get an emulator soon.

Let's hear how you guys are doing?

[PonyKiller87]

Well I have made absolutely no progress, but then again I didn't really expect to. We are finaly all moved into the house and the garage is setup for the most part so I should beable to start messing around with stuff.


As far as programers being a pain in the ass I know what you mean, when I did try and setup the one I have it was causing issues with my printer and other stuff that worked off the usb. So what Im going to do is get an old laptop (thanks brandon) setup just for programing. And like I said before the autoprom that I have does do emulation, and from what I was told you can addjust it by moving points on the 3D graphs while driving??? Anyways, I would be more than happy to let you use it just as long as you show me how to do everything. Maybe some weekend we can get together and I can show you the moates stuff that I have and we can go from there.

[350-Z28]

Just got an email from TunerCat and they said it is now available for sale for the following vehicles!

J
....maybe we need to get a group purchase going for this guys?

I'd be down for that, granted I dont have the OBD2 conversion in my car yet but since it's going to an LS1 I'll be switching it over to a 99-00 Camaro or Trans Am PCM, and at which point I would definitely need some help tuning it, unless i could start getting involved with the tuning now and get a little bit into it so I don't need to rely on others forever when it comes to tuning the cars comp. Since I'll be converting to OBD2 I won't need any of my cars original wiring in 84, so if any of you guys want the complete set-up let me know.

[chargedformula]

mine went really well. i did some data logging and saw that the computer pulls out SEVEN degrees of timing when i step on it all the time. i also noticed that i was running waaay rich, when i would floor it people said that i would leave a black cloud behind me. i didnt want to lean it out too much because i dont have a wideband, so i was just going off the regular O2's. i bumped my base timing up 2 degrees and brought the max timing retard down from 7 to 2. i could feel that it pulled way harder in 3rd gear. my previous time at the track was 12.7 @ 110, this time it was 12.1 @ 116. that 6 miles an hour is a huge improvement. i want to get a wideband to i can get the afr closer to where it should be and not just a guess.

[PonyKiller87]

Those are the kind of results that I am expecting once I start changing stuff. I know that my car is way out of tune and running super rich most of the time. The stock chip with cam, head, exhaust, removed smog is just bound to not run as good as it could. Everyonce and a while it pulls way harder than it usualy does, and thats the way it should be all the time, just need to get everything working write so that it does.

[Syclone0044]

PonyKiller, I appreciate the offer and might take you up on it. I'm looking this week into getting an emulator that works with my software. I'll let you know if the AutoProm would work.

mine went really well. i did some data logging and saw that the computer pulls out SEVEN degrees of timing when i step on it all the time. i also noticed that i was running waaay rich, when i would floor it people said that i would leave a black cloud behind me. i didnt want to lean it out too much because i dont have a wideband, so i was just going off the regular O2's. i bumped my base timing up 2 degrees and brought the max timing retard down from 7 to 2. i could feel that it pulled way harder in 3rd gear. my previous time at the track was 12.7 @ 110, this time it was 12.1 @ 116. that 6 miles an hour is a huge improvement. i want to get a wideband to i can get the afr closer to where it should be and not just a guess.

Wow, what octane fuel are you running? I am surprised artificially limiting the knock retard would make you faster, on the Syclones if you're knocking, it's detonating and the combustion is happening too soon costing you power (instead of pushing the piston down). I'd take it real easy with that knock retard.. if it's real your motor could suffer damage real soon. I'd give your plugs a check just to be safe. My truck had a false knock for 4 years before I figured it out (fuel line banging on the trans near the knock sensor).
Where did you "bump up the base timing"? (What Spark table). I wanted to do the same thing (increase timing across the board mainly at WOT) so I adjusted the F80 PE Contribution to Spark Advance but I am thinking it's probably not the "proper" place for me to do it.

I have a wideband with the patch to record the data right in the datalogger and it's completely awesome. Highly recommended!!

[chargedformula]

just running 93. i am pretty sure it is false knock. im thinking its vibrations from the supercharger and the loud exhaust. ive got about 500+ miles on the tune i have now and it seems pretty good. in tuner cat, i have two spark tables, one is the main spark table and there is an extended spark table. they are one of the first items in the drop down list. the main goes from idle to 4k, then the extended goes from 4k to i think 6 or 7k. its RPM Vs. MAP. so i added 2 degrees from 4k to 5.5k when the map is at max (WOT)