Home humidifier? Pros? Cons? Worth it??

[95 TA - The Beast]

Hey, not everything works out in life, but if you give things enough effort, evaluation and have the ability to learn from your mistakes (which are usually the best teaching experiences), you will usually end up being successful at things...

[Lash]

Residential HVAC guy?
Are you referring to me?
Awesomeears in the resi guy and I feel he gave a more than adequate explanation without a bunch of unneeded babble.
Me? I'm more of a commercial and industrial HVAC guy. I have done larger resi jobs (last was 30,000 sqft...yes 30,000), but those jobs a few and far between.

[Lash]

I noticed the resident HVAC guy didn't even give a valid reply. What is up with that? I would have to imagine properly choosing a humidification system to be well within a HVAC pros expected area of expertise, so why not a proper response to all the points discussed?

Honestly, how many people screw up their HVAC system by putting bypass systems into place and end up shortening the life of said systems? As well as lowering the efficiency of said systems?

If someone "in the industry" doesn't know, doesn't it show a lack of understanding of the principles involved in said industry? I would have to imagine such knowledge is shared by those within the industry at some level and the "answers" to all of this would have to be known. Why not share it?

Or, is it a matter that most even "in the industry" don't care enough and all that shows is that all the points made ARE VALID and that in "not caring" they are ultimately helping themselves and the industry in general profit off everyone else?

I'm am reeeeeealy biting my tongue on this one.
Ot maybe its the fact that anything said isn't going to matter to the all knowing, so why bother.
Besides, not many of us have time to invest in a lifelong thread about humidifiers.

[Lash]

If someone "in the industry" doesn't know, doesn't it show a lack of understanding of the principles involved in said industry? I would have to imagine such knowledge is shared by those within the industry at some level and the "answers" to all of this would have to be known. Why not share it?

How about because I paid A LOT of fucking money to go to school and educate myself and put my time in to gain experience. If I showed everybody how to install their own shit for free, what's the point of me going to school to make money? Just so I can educate everybody else and give away all my tips and secrets? You must live in a different world than me.

[Prince Valiant]

It's a vast conspiracy. Provide poor service so that people's furnances fail early so that said HVAC pro's will have to install new furnances at considerable expense thus providing HVAC pro's with vast income. It's very obvious.

[Lash]

I seriously hope that was sarcasm.
I never know with you.

[wrath]

How about because I paid A LOT of fucking money to go to school and educate myself and put my time in to gain experience. If I showed everybody how to install their own shit for free, what's the point of me going to school to make money? Just so I can educate everybody else and give away all my tips and secrets? You must live in a different world than me.

You're doing it wrong. The reason you are paid to do your work is because other people don't want to do it and you do it faster.

I'm willing to bet the one you're lamenting about would actually do a better job than you and that's mostly due to caring and attention to detail. I'm 100% certain it would take much longer than you for him to complete the same amount of work and would likely starve to death if that was his source of income. I would also go so far as to say that he probably has a six figure income and learning things like this is a hobby for him. The same thing that drives him to learn about things like HVAC is what allows him to be successful at work.

I went to school and paid a lot more for it and every chance I get I tell someone how to do something because if I tell them how to do it so then I can do something else more fun (like learning something new). Which is why I have a cushy desk job that pays a lot.

It's a vast conspiracy. Provide poor service so that people's furnances fail early so that said HVAC pro's will have to install new furnances at considerable expense thus providing HVAC pro's with vast income. It's very obvious.

You sound like a consultant.

[Lash]

So you're saying that somebody is going is to do a "better quality" job because of things they've learned on the Internet over somebody who went to school and has over 15 years experience along with continued education learning?
He can think he knows it all. But there are things that just can't be taught over the Internet. And there are things that shouldn't be taught over the Internet. But both of you always seem to know it all, so fuck it, do what you want.

I have no problem helping people out. It's the people who want everything for free or the dick bag know-it-all's that I refuse to help. He already weighed the pros and cons of each himself and made a decision on which one he wants. If I suggest one of the other, he'll probably just try and make an argument for the other.

Long story short (unlike some other people) I like the fan powered humidifiers better. Bypass humidifiers are robing the system of supply air and I don't like the fact that they send a bunch of humidity thru the air filter and blower assembly. With the fan assist models, I have seen some that leaked into the coil plenum and had water run down inside the plenum walls past the condensate pan and onto furnace components ruining them. Also, as already stated, they do leak air but its minimal. Odds are you are leaking far more air at every duct joint in the entire system because most systems aren't properly sealed before they get closed up into inaccessible areas. I know people that have both. You can find people that love each or hate both. The Aprilaire and Honeywell both work fine. IMO most resi humidifiers available off the shelf are hokey at best.

I'm just wondering why you need a humidifier in the first place. Not long ago you were posting about how roughly sealed your house was. Typically in that situation, you could have used an HVR system if you wanted to get fancy. Normally people don't need to add makeup air AND a humidification system.

I'm done here.

[95 TA - The Beast]

Wow... Just, wow...

A discussion on the principles and effects of installing a humidifier turned into a bitch and moan session of why people get paid to install HVAC and why they deserve to get paid to do it???

How is that even a direct correlation?

Who even asked for information on how to install something???

A discussion on the pros and cons of various system designs in no way dictates a protectionist viewpoint. Obviously someone doesn't like the idea of people doing their own work in a realm they deem they need to "protect". I honestly don't think HVAC techs need to be worried about their profession considering how so few actually *want* to do their own work on their HVAC systems. Plus a humidifier is such a small portion that it is amazing someone would take that viewpoint.

In regards to PVs comment, what you stated as sarcasm is EXACTLY what Lash just outlined in his previous post being a protectionist of his profession. He even further explained that the bypass systems due, in fact, put unnecessary moisture though the filter and air handler system. Which will most certainly reduce the lifespan of both (and potentially be a death-knell to something like an electronic air cleaner, which is what I have). Yet those systems are installed all the time by HVAC pros, knowing that it will reduce the lifespan of those other components. Why would they do that? Would they make that same decision if it were THEIR home and equipment??? Which is the key point I was making in regards to "questionable" products.

Lash, in regards to needing makeup air and humidification, your correlation is backwards. In winter when you add dry cold air from the outside as makeup air it INCREASES your need to add humidification as it drys the air inside the house out even more. So, once the makeup air problem is resolved (ie, more cold dry outside air is brought in) the need for humidification increases. This is exacerbated by the fact that I added humidistats to the bathrooms so that excessive moisture does not build up in them (which happened in the past since it is obvious there was condensation issues in the bathrooms). Since these bathrooms do not have return ducting in them, only feeds, there is no way to properly distribute moist air from the bathrooms to other areas of the house directly. And yes, I didn't build the house so I am sure it is an overlooked part of the design criteria (again this place was originally designed with electric baseboard heat in mind with the ductwork added for central cooling and then a furnace added in as a backup that wasn't even used for the first 5 years).

I just cannot believe the attitudes in general. It is obvious some do not appreciate the amount of work someone else does to understand things, to break them down and offer them for an advanced discussion that allows others to learn. It is not a matter of "knowing it all", it is a matter of learning. Sorry if some feel either inadequate or others are put-off because someone is "in their territory", but it is not like I am advocating that HVAC pros are ignorant or incompetent. Making proper decisions on everything is life is everyones responsibility and just because some don't want to fall into the pitfalls of "blindly trusting" businesses and "pros" doesn't mean they don't give those same businesses and "pros" the business to do things either they can't or do not want to do. It is just that they refuse to be "duped" into bad decision making by those with potentially ulterior motives. Look at dealerships and auto repair places, as they are notorious for selling repairs and services that are not needed or required. I would venture that if every dealer went "honest" in how they deal with customers (including warranty billables) you would find a large percentage go under.

None of this is a matter of "knowing it all", it is a matter of making prudent decisions. And trust me, I know people in all sorts of professions and have heard the "protectionist" viewpoint in regards to everything from auto repair (like hearing someone rip others in doing brake jobs because "they shouldn't be allowed to" because it keeps him from making more money on those jobs people do themselves for example) to electrical (on how someone shouldn't be allowed to buy switches and outlets and breakers when "a licensed electrician should be required by code" to do the work) to carpentry, other professions and even computers... Fact of the matter is none of those things have gotten to the point where just anyone can do them, so there will always be a need for those professions. Sure the evolution of products and the marketplace have made it harder to find a "niche" in a lot of things, and those niches sometimes end up being doing things that people don't want to do and aren't the "gravy" that was available in years prior, but they still require "experts" in doing what they do. Look at windows. Hard to find places that will do sash repairs as everyone wants the big profits by selling new windows. Doesn't even make sense in a lot of cases, but the available options to find someone to do the repairs vs a replacement are more and more difficult to find.

Oh, and the idea that the internet is the "only" source of information is a pretty flawed assumption. And to assume that things like HVAC can't be understood is another. All the materials you learned from and all the texts published on the subject are available to anyone that wants to look for them. Physics, flow dynamics, the math involved in all the calcs, the load tables, all the reference materials used in design, evaluation, monitoring and implementation are all available in many forms. And like I said before, certain things, such as sheet metal work, I will fully agree with that it is hands on to get good at, but again, that wasn't even part of this discussion. This discussion was on the pros and cons of humidifiers. I kept it to that topic and discussed the technical merits and downfalls of all the various types. I gave an opinion that was taken as a definitive statement. That was not the case. Sorry if some take things out of context, but it is obvious, regardless how well you explain things, or how much detail you go into, others will always take their own perspective on things and interject plenty that does not exist based on their own bias.

[jbiscuit]

And we have a new longest post on Bcm! Worth noting, I had to scroll to see it all on my phone! Note I said "see" it all. Not READ it all. It's tough to tell who is the resident know it all on Bcm. One could argue the longer the post, the more the bullshit factor! This is tough!

[Lash]

Some of the newer homes these days run a HRV system and no humidifier. My sister has one in here house and its fantastic. What you have now (depending on how yours is installed) might be an unregulated amount of outside air coming into the house. With tightly sealed homes its not hard at all to reach a 35-40% or higher humidity level on its own. With an HRV system you can regulate the amount of outside air coming in by controlling it off of the furnace AND by a negative pressure switch so that makeup air is only brought in on a need basis. This way it still allows the tightly sealed house to naturally maintain a 35% humidity level just by being occupied without assists means and allow fresh air into the system. Bottom line of hat most people are going to tell you is, either your house is't as tightly sealed as you think or you don't need as much humidification as you think. I haven't read your book, but have you tested the humidity level? Why do you think you need extra humidification?

[95 TA - The Beast]

Humidity levels have reached 18-19%... Static charge buildups, dryness in lips/hands and most importantly shrinking of wood, all the major factors why we need humidification...

In regards to the furnace, it is an older 80% efficient unit with a natural updraft flue, thus is sucks out air from inside the house a lot, thus my need for makeup air. I circumvented the need to add a makeup combustion air port into the house by using a custom circuit to shut off the blower fan during furnace ignition. I have noticed complete and full updraft with no backdrafting since I implemented it. I also installed proper damper doors on the bathroom vents, so I know it is not pulling air back in through them (which is contributing to the lack of humidity compared to what it was like when we moved in and there were none). I do know exactly where air is making it's way in through an improperly sealed wire/pipe egress at he back of the house. That is the only place you can feel a cool draft come in and since I am concerned that if I sealed that up fully I would end up with air coming in the only way it can, through the chimney flues, that could cause a larger backdraft issues, so I am leaving that egress point the way it is... It isn't blowing in cool air, but you can tell it is coming in there when you put your hand up by it...

If I were to go with a newer high-efficiency furnace I would most certainly seal up that area and go with a HRV system... Just that for the current design of the systems in the home it doesn't make sense. I also have issues finding inlet/outlet points that would mess with the aesthetics of the house.

[95 TA - The Beast]

And we have a new longest post on Bcm! Worth noting, I had to scroll to see it all on my phone! Note I said "see" it all. Not READ it all. It's tough to tell who is the resident know it all on Bcm. One could argue the longer the post, the more the bullshit factor! This is tough!

Jason, you and Chris both, again, have the same problem... Stop posting in threads if you have nothing to add of value. You only bitch and moan because of your own inferiority complexes. You both showed how much of a problem you both have, yet again.

[Lash]

The best case for you the is indeed a fan assisted model. They do make some really nice steam systems but those can run $700 and up. Just keep an eye on it and check the filter, water line, and solenoid often. Wisconsin water seems to be particularly hard on them. The Honeywell and Aprilaire are similar in design and function for the most part.

As far as why people install they bypass type.... They seem to work fine for most people. I just don't like them.

That's about all of my opinion on the subject. I'm more used to the 20ton-200ton and up realm of things. I don't like resi.

[95 TA - The Beast]

Lash, thanks for the feedback... Much appreciated.

[Lash]

There is a couple more things to think about too. I don't know how long your systems runs but if its calling for heat and only runs 15 minutes you might be better off with a steam system. Otherwise you should be fine with a fan assist. Another think to consider is water usage. While the fan assist versions use less power they use a lot of water. Typically for every 22 gal put into the airstream, it'll use about 100 gallons of water. The steam versions use a lot less water, but the electricity consumption is pretty high. The fan assisted versions also have the option to tie into a hot water line instead of cold, but while they work better using hot, you are paying additional operating costs of heating that water and pouring most of it down the drain. Steam systems tend to be more finicky, but when your are trying to humidify a larger house with one system (instead of two or even three furnaces) they tend to work better because they have a higher production rate. You can add install two fan assisted types if you have the room on your plenum.
The size that you need and the amount of humidification is dependent on many factors. Occupancy level, humidity rise needed, sq. footage, home leakage rate. Iirc you have around 5k sq.ft. It might be a little tricky since you have a single system. The pad can assisted models will say up to 6k sq. ft., but getting that tends to be their upper limit of production.

[jbiscuit]

[BoosTT]

Guess someone doesn't need to worry about the minimum characters per post.

Seriously, learn to use fewer words. I hope you don't send emails that long.

[95 TA - The Beast]

Lash, actually I run the blower fan 24/7 with the only time it stopping is to ignite the burners and get the draft going up the flue. But I do know what you mean about it needing to have the heat going to optimally get moisture into the air. As it stands in the really cold weather (say -5 for 2-3 days) I have noticed the furnace running for 12 or so hours a day at most. I have never seen it hit 13 hours. And that is with keeping the house at 70 degrees everywhere.

I will admit, I am hoping that with a humidifier I can keep the temp around 68 degrees with the same relative comfort level. So there is "hopefully" an energy upside as well.

And I will be using hot water as a supply instead of cold water. We heat the water to 140 degrees in the water heater, so hopefully that will offer an edge on producing moisture as well.

MY concern with steam units is the size needed and the overall long-term reliability. I have read a lot of horror stories about most of the top units on the market, so I figured I would give that tech a few years to mature before jumping on that bandwagon.

I have kept track of our water consumption pretty closely and we use about 320 gallons a day on average. Not bad for a family of 8 in the house really. We do have all high-efficiency appliances so that helps. But, that is also with a water softener cycling every 6 days as well with full backwash and rinse cycles too, so that uses quite a bit of water as well.

[95 TA - The Beast]

I ended up picking up a Honeywell HE300 that was used for less than a month. The previous owner had problems with it leaking. That was caused by the fact he had it right next to the a-coil and air was being diverted directly into it causing a ton of turbulence and in turn causing a lot of water to be thrown around inside. On this version of the HE300 the drain is not the lowest point in the case. In the later revision it is molded in a way where the drain is the lowest point and it alleviates this issue.

Considering I got this unit along with new lines for less than $25 (or ~$45 with a brand a new anti-microbial coated pad) and it is basically brand new, I have already come up with a solution. I will be using sealing mastic to buildup a funneled bottom to the humidifier. It will cost all of $4 and about a half hours time and it will be "fixed"... In my install I may not even have this issue since I plan on installing it above the a-coil on the end of the a-coil, not the side. I am sure it will still get *some* turbulence, thus why I am taking care of this issue.

Now I am back to deciding what to do about humidity control. I have the included mechanical humidity controller, but since I have been considering a Honeywell Prestige IAQ 2.0 HD thermostat setup, now might be the perfect time to go that route.