A Little Update!

[Flicktitty]

^^^ so you're gonna be there right? LOL! i will!

[TopStreetDsm]

Count me in!

[DoubleAron]

I have a couple of questions about DSM/imports and this car in general. I know nothing about either and have never really cared to, I do think it is cool that there is one finally making some power.
My biggest question is someone said above it could break into the 9s, Is that it? For real? I'm not trying to rip on it at all, I just always thought those cars were sub 2500#s and with a curve like that with that much hp/torque I would think it would be faster than that. This is not a slam at all just something I was wondering about.

[blackcar]

I have a couple of questions about DSM/imports and this car in general. I know nothing about either and have never really cared to, I do think it is cool that there is one finally making some power.
My biggest question is someone said above it could break into the 9s, Is that it? For real? I'm not trying to rip on it at all, I just always thought those cars were sub 2500#s and with a curve like that with that much hp/torque I would think it would be faster than that. This is not a slam at all just something I was wondering about.

Stockers are closer to 3200#, I can't speak to Jakes weight though, http://www.shepracing.com/ Here is some more sickness for ya Oh yeah, props on those numbers, Jake.

[twicks69]

Well in response to your question FSTNA347:

A full weight DSM is around 3108# for a 1991-1994 AWD model Talon or Eclipse, while an AWD Plymouth Lazer weighs in at 3073#. The later models from 1995-1999 weigh in around 3157#(auto) to 3234#(5-spd) for AWD Mitsubishi Eclipses and AWD Eagle Talons, depending on transmission style (auto or 5-spd). Finally, 1991-1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR4's weigh in around 3295#. These numbers are without fuel and fluids. All of these vehicles share similar drivetrains and motors, all based off of the 4G63 2.0L Turbo AWD platform.

1991-1994 DSM's have a fuel capacity of 16 gallons, while 1995-1999 DSM's have a fuel capacity of 17 gallons. Add another 12 or so quarts of oil for the motor, trans, transfer case, and rear end. And finally 2 gallons of coolant.
So, you can add approximately 5.8# to 6.5# per gallon of gasoline, and around 2# per quart of oil, and around 8# per gallon of coolant. This equates to ~144# added to the vehicle weight of a 1G DSM, and ~150# to the weight of a 2G DSM.

The results of total weight of these vehicles are:
~3252# for a 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse,
~3217# for a Plymouth Lazer AWD,
~3307# for an auto 1995-1999 AWD Talon/Eclipse,
~3384 for a 5-speed 1995-1999 AWD Talon/Eclipse, and
~3439# for a 1991-1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR4.

The coefficient of drag on these vehicles are in the range of 0.29 and 0.30 for all models.

With 500whp, not taking into account coefficient of drag, tire expansion, gear shift duration, etc., using the total weights for the vehicles above:
10.8 seconds @125mph for a 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse/Lazer
10.9 seconds @124mph for a 2G AWD auto Talon/Eclipse
11.0 seconds @123mph for a 2G AWD 5-speed Talon/Eclipse and Galant VR-4

With 600whp, with the same details as above:

10.2 seconds @133mph 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse
10.1 seconds @133mph 1G AWD lazer
10.2 seconds @132mph 2G auto Talon/Eclipse
10.3 seconds @131mph 2G 5-Speed Talon/Eclipse
10.4 seconds @130mph Galant VR-4

With 700whp, again...same details as above:

9.7 seconds @140mph 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse
9.6 seconds @140mph 1G AWD lazer
9.7 seconds @139mph 2G Auto
9.8 seconds @138mph 2G 5-speed
9.9 seconds @137mph Galant VR-4

At 1000whp:
8.6 seconds @158mph 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse
8.7 seconds @155mph 2G AWD 5-speed Talon/Eclipse

Then take into place that Jake's car weighs in around 2600#...

Ideally @ 700whp:
Jake: 9.2 @ 151mph

Ideally @ 1000whp
Jake: 8.0 @ 170mph



Here is a quick discussion. If you want longer, I have plenty more.

[TopStreetDsm]

Thats a lot to read!

To answer your question the best I know how: I Dont Know?

I have tryed to do all of the calculation and every time I do, there are so many different variables, that I just end up guessing.

I think one of the major differences with imports-domestics is that the imports are still finding what works. Im not talking to make power, but instead what is going to make the hook, go, and Stay Together! In the same way with no disrespect ment: Muscle has had almost 60 years to figure it out at this point. Many of the tricks and parts are available as common knowledge. Example: Dedenbear Power Gluides. What an awesome advancement.

Right now many of the imports have to compensate, and the know way to do it is with the power. I am working with a lot of suspension theory and what not but I am going to try and advance the import community.

As another example: By the time I am done with my head and suspension, I plan on pulling power to about 12k Rpm. And starting it about 4.5K or so. This is going to leave me with 7-8,000 Usable rpm's. Now if I can get that car to hook, that is going to be one sweet ride. If my plan doesnt work and the car blows the F up!.... Back to square one.

Right now its an 11 sec car until I do better.

Jake

[DoubleAron]

I totally see what you are saying it was just something I thought of when I first saw your post. I just wanted to find out for my personnal knowledge.
It would be cool to see it go fast but like you said who knows, A dyno is just a tool and the real numbers that count are the ET.
Hope you get it all figured out and running well it would be cool to see.

[FourEyedFord]

Well in response to your question FSTNA347:

A full weight DSM is around 3108# for a 1991-1994 AWD model Talon or Eclipse, while an AWD Plymouth Lazer weighs in at 3073#. The later models from 1995-1999 weigh in around 3157#(auto) to 3234#(5-spd) for AWD Mitsubishi Eclipses and AWD Eagle Talons, depending on transmission style (auto or 5-spd). Finally, 1991-1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR4's weigh in around 3295#. These numbers are without fuel and fluids. All of these vehicles share similar drivetrains and motors, all based off of the 4G63 2.0L Turbo AWD platform.

1991-1994 DSM's have a fuel capacity of 16 gallons, while 1995-1999 DSM's have a fuel capacity of 17 gallons. Add another 12 or so quarts of oil for the motor, trans, transfer case, and rear end. And finally 2 gallons of coolant.
So, you can add approximately 5.8# to 6.5# per gallon of gasoline, and around 2# per quart of oil, and around 8# per gallon of coolant. This equates to ~144# added to the vehicle weight of a 1G DSM, and ~150# to the weight of a 2G DSM.

The results of total weight of these vehicles are:
~3252# for a 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse,
~3217# for a Plymouth Lazer AWD,
~3307# for an auto 1995-1999 AWD Talon/Eclipse,
~3384 for a 5-speed 1995-1999 AWD Talon/Eclipse, and
~3439# for a 1991-1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR4.

The coefficient of drag on these vehicles are in the range of 0.29 and 0.30 for all models.

With 500whp, not taking into account coefficient of drag, tire expansion, gear shift duration, etc., using the total weights for the vehicles above:
10.8 seconds @125mph for a 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse/Lazer
10.9 seconds @124mph for a 2G AWD auto Talon/Eclipse
11.0 seconds @123mph for a 2G AWD 5-speed Talon/Eclipse and Galant VR-4

With 600whp, with the same details as above:

10.2 seconds @133mph 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse
10.1 seconds @133mph 1G AWD lazer
10.2 seconds @132mph 2G auto Talon/Eclipse
10.3 seconds @131mph 2G 5-Speed Talon/Eclipse
10.4 seconds @130mph Galant VR-4

With 700whp, again...same details as above:

9.7 seconds @140mph 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse
9.6 seconds @140mph 1G AWD lazer
9.7 seconds @139mph 2G Auto
9.8 seconds @138mph 2G 5-speed
9.9 seconds @137mph Galant VR-4

At 1000whp:
8.6 seconds @158mph 1G AWD Talon/Eclipse
8.7 seconds @155mph 2G AWD 5-speed Talon/Eclipse

Then take into place that Jake's car weighs in around 2600#...

Ideally @ 700whp:
Jake: 9.2 @ 151mph

Ideally @ 1000whp
Jake: 8.0 @ 170mph



Here is a quick discussion. If you want longer, I have plenty more.

J/K

[FourEyedFord]

Thats a lot to read!

To answer your question the best I know how: I Dont Know?

I have tryed to do all of the calculation and every time I do, there are so many different variables, that I just end up guessing.

I think one of the major differences with imports-domestics is that the imports are still finding what works. Im not talking to make power, but instead what is going to make the hook, go, and Stay Together! In the same way with no disrespect ment: Muscle has had almost 60 years to figure it out at this point. Many of the tricks and parts are available as common knowledge. Example: Dedenbear Power Gluides. What an awesome advancement.

Right now many of the imports have to compensate, and the know way to do it is with the power. I am working with a lot of suspension theory and what not but I am going to try and advance the import community.

As another example: By the time I am done with my head and suspension, I plan on pulling power to about 12k Rpm. And starting it about 4.5K or so. This is going to leave me with 7-8,000 Usable rpm's. Now if I can get that car to hook, that is going to be one sweet ride. If my plan doesnt work and the car blows the F up!.... Back to square one.

Right now its an 11 sec car until I do better.

Jake

I saw the power started to level off after 6500rpm, and you want to rev it to 12000rpm and still make good power? How do you plan to do that? Its seems like you would need some pretty aggressive cams to have the motor make power up there.

[FourEyedFord]

Just askin'. I also know zero about imports.

[TopStreetDsm]

427: You are right. I am going to need some agressive cams. The Power leveling off is due to boost coming down slightly. Amazingly 1-2psi is around 60-70 hp difference. Also 10.2:1 A/F is hard to burn at that kind of RPM.

I already have my game plan and Im working towards it. I was wondering when someone was going to point the powerband out.

Either way, We've only Just begun!

Jake

[FourEyedFord]

427: You are right. I am going to need some agressive cams. The Power leveling off is due to boost coming down slightly. Amazingly 1-2psi is around 60-70 hp difference. Also 10.2:1 A/F is hard to burn at that kind of RPM.

I already have my game plan and Im working towards it. I was wondering when someone was going to point the powerband out.

Either way, We've only Just begun!

Jake

10.2:1 is pig rich, mine broke up in the higher rpms last year with that air/fuel. Should be a good amount of power left there.

I am just speaking from what I am doing with my car. I want my motor to make power to 7500rpm this year, and the cam for me to do that is massive. Granted your motor has much less cubic inches than mine, but 12,000rpm is spinning hard. How big do import cams go: lift and duration? (You don't have to give your exact cam specs)

[TopStreetDsm]

Right now its the standard HKS 272deg cams. Thats 9.8mm lift. For everyone on this side of the planet: .386 "

[FourEyedFord]

Right now its the standard HKS 272deg cams. Thats 9.8mm lift. For everyone on this side of the planet: .386 "

Is that lobe lift?

[Berettaspeed]

think one of the major differences with imports-domestics is that the imports are still finding what works. Im not talking to make power, but instead what is going to make the hook, go, and Stay Together! In the same way with no disrespect ment: Muscle has had almost 60 years to figure it out at this point. Many of the tricks and parts are available as common knowledge. Example: Dedenbear Power Gluides. What an awesome advancement.

X2^

yes this is true, but i would not use imports or domestics but more of solid axle Vs drive axles for the most part...or RWD Vs FWD, but some RWD are not solid axles... drive axles just suck..

[TopStreetDsm]

I think CV style axles have there advantages. I also think people have not made them work to the same extent as the solid axles.

So ?... We will see what the industry has in the future.

Jake

[SpdRcrZ]

Damn Jake, that is some crazy sheit. Can't wait to see it on the track.

We should be down there with our Turbo Canabeer opening weekend (sunday)

[Bee]

hehe you guys have so much time on here... cool

AWD will defintely benefit... when we were 1900lb@635whp we couldn't ever hook up....due to FWD and sh1tty suspension... cars similar to ours around the nation have seen 9.40s@150-155mph easily!!! we only managed a slow 10.1@high 140s...with a 1.8s 60ft!!! If Jake can plant that car off the line with an awesome launch we'll see an easy 9sec whether low 9s or high 9s.. 9s would be fantastic either way!!!!

[Bee]

I have a couple of questions about DSM/imports and this car in general. I know nothing about either and have never really cared to, I do think it is cool that there is one finally making some power.
My biggest question is someone said above it could break into the 9s, Is that it? For real? I'm not trying to rip on it at all, I just always thought those cars were sub 2500#s and with a curve like that with that much hp/torque I would think it would be faster than that. This is not a slam at all just something I was wondering about.

it's actually more then that sir... Imports/4cyls are actually nothing similar to V8 power. V8s are instant power and then slightly flat lines. where as for imports we have to build and shift gears somtimes 5 times(5spd). If you can get your hands onto a G-Force and shorten the gears up a bit 4cyl import can actually utilize most of the topend power and KICK BUTT..... The ticket to 8-9sec is suspension and tranny/gearing...... almost forgot about driving skills too....definitely can't rule that out

700whp V8 isn't the same as 700whp 4cyl... no no no!!! if same weight and everything pretty much similar the v8 would more then likely dominate in acceleration...1/4mile thingy...

[Al]

That car is something else!

The 4 valves make a huge difference for power @ rpm too.

As for the engine power band, I remember how my old mustang was just so responsive to throttle down low. With my integra, it does have a good proportional amount of tourque down low, but once the rpms build, the torque increases a bit and you really get the sense of being 'in the powerband.' My mustang did not do that at all.