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View Full Version : Big Block FORD VRS. Big Block CHEVY "LOOK THESE FACTS OVER"



DynoTom
10-13-2006, 06:33 PM
FORD : All production Ford 385 Series blocks have a 10.300+" deck height. We don't need to search high & low for a production tall deck block like the chevy guys do. All Ford blocks are "tall" deck and can be found anywhere. Further, the Ford's 10.300" deck height is still higher than the chevy tall deck's 10.200" deck height.

CHEVY :All passenger car chevy blocks have a 9.800" deck height. Chevy guys need to look high & low for their elusive 10.200" tall deck truck block, and the enthusiasts want big bucks for them. In the end, their 10.200" tall deck truck block still comes up short when compared to Ford's standard issue 10.300" block

FORD :The Ford's lifter valley has oil drainback galleries at the rear so as to direct oil straight to the pan while also diverting it away from the rotating assembly (where oil can rob horsepower). Also, the center section of the valley is raised so as to bring the crankcase ventilation holes above the oil level and also creates a "trench" between the cylinder banks and lifter bores which channels oil to the drainback galleries.


CHEVY :The chevy's lifter valley has no oil drainback galleries. And due to the raised, single ventilation hole at the front of the block, most of the oil in the lifter valley has no choice but to drain through the middle of the lifter valley and directly onto the rotating assembly (where the oil robs horsepower). This is a notorius problem with the production chevy's and there are aftermarket kits attempting to address this poor block characteristic.


FORD :The cam-to-crank centerline is higher in the Ford (6.078"). This enables us to run cams as big as necessary for our huge stroker motors (or our 9000+ rpm screamer motors) and breathe easily. Also, Ford lifters have a greater diameter (0.875") which makes for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams. The higher cam centerline also makes for shorter (and effectively stiffer) pushrods.


CHEVY : The cam-to-crank centerline in the chevy is too close in a performance applicaton (5.152"; Gen 2 blocks raised to 5.552"), as it effectively restricts the maximum cam lobe height...in the early blocks, the cam lobes will actually hit the rotating assembly if the cam is too big. Such an aggressive cam would wreak havoc on the chevy's smaller (0.842") flat tappet lifters anyway. Longer pushrods are more prone to fail, too


FORD :The production Ford blocks can handle enough stroke to conceivably create a 572 cubic inch engine without the need to clearance the block to accomodate the stroker crank. The stroker kits for the Ford fit like a glove.


CHEVY :Not only is the production chevy block incapable of accomodating a stroker engine package as big as the Ford, but it also requires grinding / clearancing of the crankcase to fit a stroker crankshaft in the first place.


FORD :The Ford has a 4.900" bore spacing. This allows for bigger cylinder bores and pistons, better cooling between cylinders, and larger engine displacement capability from the oem block.


CHEVY :The chevy is stuck with a 4.840" bore spacing. This restricts the extent of oversize pistons compared to the Ford. Ford's stock boresize is bigger than the 427/454 by over .100".


FORD :The Ford's head bolt holes are blind and stay nice and clean for decades of faithful service. The countersunk threads are more protected and chasing is not needed after block decking.


CHEVY :The Chevy head bolt holes go into the water jackets, which corrodes the bolt threads. Headbolt threads often strip--both on the bolt and in the block.


FORD :The symmetrically spaced massive 9/16" head bolts support a 140 foot-pound clamping force and do it with a minumum of bore distortion, thanks to the head bolt holes being anchored directly into the block material and not only into the deck. With head bolts of this size and capability, Ford's don't need any more bolts in almost every application


CHEVY :The chevy's irregularly spaced wimpy 7/16" head bolts limit head clamping to only 65-75 foot-pounds (almost half that of Ford). Even at this low spec, a torque plate is highly advisable because of bore distortion; the head bolt's anchor into threads in the cylinder deck and so the deck easily gets pulled out of shape (it's not much thicker than the small block chevy deck).



Ford 429/460 Rod Ratio: 1.84/1.72

Large stroker cranks from OEM cranks

Symetrical ports for better fuel distribution

Good compression ratios with flat top pistons (72-96 cc combustion chambers)




Chevy 396/427/454 Rod Ratio: 1.63/1.63/1.53

Need aftermarket crank to get big displacement

Non-symetrical intake ports

Huge, heavy dome pistons required to get just 10.5:1 c/r (98-122cc combustion chambers)

juicedimpss
10-13-2006, 06:46 PM
ford heads??????????????:rolf :rolf :rolf

juicedimpss
10-13-2006, 06:49 PM
lets not even talk about stock rods :rolf :rolf

Syclone0044
10-13-2006, 07:04 PM
Well at least there wasn't any bias evident in that article!

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 07:14 PM
Well at least there wasn't any bias evident in that article!


Yes a FORD bias for sure But, Chevy bias is evident in MANY more places than that....


Both engines are good, it's just I have seen some guys that think a Chevy is the only way to go fast.....It's not the case......

Syclone0044
10-13-2006, 07:22 PM
I always thought those kind of people were stupid, to be honest. Does anyone really think there is some "magic horsepower" inherent to any one brand engine? If so why wouldn't everyone flock to the one with such an advantage?

Greg@GLD
10-13-2006, 07:26 PM
I always thought those kind of people were stupid, to be honest. Does anyone really think there is some "magic horsepower" inherent to any one brand engine? If so why wouldn't everyone flock to the one with such an advantage?


Well... Before the 5.0 came along, the SBC ruled the aftermarket, with good reason. But yea, it really comes down to assembling a proper collection of parts that work together, not the origin of the engine.

"And after that you still have to drive it!"

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 07:32 PM
I always thought those kind of people were stupid, to be honest. Does anyone really think there is some "magic horsepower" inherent to any one brand engine? If so why wouldn't everyone flock to the one with such an advantage?


I think you are 100% right....


I LOVE all big block engines and they all have ways of making them go fast !


I was just pointing out some things with production big block engines that some guys might not know....


My big block Ford borrows a few things from a big block Chevy so I can prove that I like some stuff on the BBC too!


My big block Ford engine uses a BBC rods and BBC exhaust ports and I'm certain that my Ford engine is better with those Chevy designed parts in it than it would be with those Ford designed parts......

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 09:08 PM
ford heads??????????????:rolf :rolf :rolf

Ditto X a Trillion. The Ford MIGHT be able to SUPPORT more HP in a stock verses stock confrontation, but there's this little thing called the aftermarket that addresses most of those perceived faults with the Chevy. As for cylinder heads? To quote John Bender from the Breakfast Club: "NOT EVEN CLOSE, BUD!" Remember, the heads are where the power is made.

The Lima BB isn't a terrible design and has SOME potential, but I have yet to see ANY production Ford V8 that has a decent exhaust port. I swear Ford had two different design departments, one semi-intelligent team for the intake ports, and then across the hall toil the myopic retards that designed the exhaust ports. :durr

It's too bad, but the only decent aftermarket head for these things seems to be the latest design (Kaase) Cobra Jet head. That's probably the equivalent of a Dart 360 BBC head. Whoopee. Unless you're going with a full-house Jon Kaase ProStock mountain motor, the aftermarket power potential just isn't there for these engines.

BTW, lest you think I'm just some Chevy biased jerk, here is where my loyalty really lies: IMO, the 426 Hemi bests both of these other two engines in every stated category except one; bore spacing. Better block, better oiling, better rods, better heads, better valve train, etc.

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 09:14 PM
I always thought those kind of people were stupid, to be honest. Does anyone really think there is some "magic horsepower" inherent to any one brand engine? If so why wouldn't everyone flock to the one with such an advantage?

+1 for you.

The engine doesn't know how to read, and is therefore oblivious of what it says on the valve cover. However, an engine's popularity and the accompanying aftermarket support can make a HUGE difference in the power one can make, especially on a budget...

Want_Notch
10-13-2006, 09:32 PM
Does anyone really think there is some "magic horsepower" inherent to any one brand engine?

There isn't?.............That's not what the Easter Bunny told me!





Bastard!:flipoff2:

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 09:36 PM
The Kaase SCJ's are on the very low end of flow on what you can get for the BBF today. TFS A460's, FMS C-460's and IDT Eliminators all outflow the BBC DART 360 with no problems....The newer MOPAR HEMI Pro Stock heads are not even a "Hemi chamber" anymore as too many pro stock guys were having trouble getting the compression ratios they needed with those huge chambers to compete so now they make them with a "wedge" chamber (small chamber) with the spark plug in the middle....


The BBF market is really starting to grow as some of the NMCA PRO 5.0 guys are going with Big blocks now......


The one that is a major factor that hurts the BBF heads is the exhaust ports......They just can't flow enough in big HP engines.....The real big HP engines use a BBC exhaust port that is raised up quite a bit....

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 09:43 PM
Flow and velocity...


TFS sells A-460 heads complete and ready to run for $2300.00


They flow over 412 cfm on the intake and give great port velocity.....


We paired the TFS A-460's up with a CNC ported pair of DART 360's on the flow bench and it showed a slight edge to the A-460's on the intake side and a slight advantage to the BBC Darts the exhaust side....But, the TFS A-460's were untouched "out of the box" so keep that in mind.....

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 09:59 PM
Here is a build up using TFS BBF stuff......Keep in mind this is not a "all out build" with the production block and conservative compression ratio.....


750 + HP plus and 660 torque is not bad for a engine that would be very easy to build......This engine would represent a very easy to reach level of what you can do with a BBF today....Any more HP or a power adder I would go with a A-460 FMS block or one of the 4 different levels of 460 blocks IDT sells....


Now we swing the cubic inch needle way past 11 with Summit’s 520 c.i.d. 460 big block. If you have the room, there just ain’t no substitute for the natural torque production of big block—or the unnatural torque of a stroked big block.

To create the 520, Summit took a 1972 460 2-bolt block, bored it .030 over, then added one of their new 4.300-inch stroke cast cranks, 6.700-inch Trick Flow big Chevy connecting rods, and a set of custom Arias 12:1 compression flat top pistons. With this combo, no block clearancing or special bearings are required.

Rounding out the engine combo is a Crane .718-inch lift solid roller cam, Trick Flow A460 aluminum cylinder heads with a Crane valvetrain, Trick Flow A460 single plane intake manifold with a 1,150 cfm Holley Dominator (with #94 primary and secondary jets), and an MSD Pro-Billet distributor with an MSD crank trigger ignition. The Hedman Husler 2 1/4-inch primary headers we featured in the 520 buildup article were swapped for Hooker dyno headers with 2 1/8-inch primaries. Total timing was set at 34 degrees.

Since the 520 was built as a strip-oriented engine, we expected big numbers way up in the powerband. We were not disappointed: Horsepower peaked at 752 at 6,250 rpm, and torque hit 660 foot-pounds at 5,250 rpm. And in grand stroker tradition, torque production at the lower end was just as impressive, with 540 foot-pounds of the stuff available at 3,500 rpm. If you can’t make a car go fast with that kind of moxie under your accelerator foot, you can’t go fast.

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 10:14 PM
Here is more of a "all out" BBF build in a FOX Stang....


At 16 to 1 compression it's no "pump gas street car " for sure but, it's also naturally aspirated and tips the scales at almost 3600 lbs....;)


This one uses FMS C-460 heads and intake on a 528 CID.


http://www.thefordmall.com/2003/may/03CARTECH02PRITCH/index.php

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 10:24 PM
I looked at a set of ported A-460 heads at C&S some years back (1993) and I didn't like the way that the intake port opened up in the bowl area. It looked like a sure fire way to slow down velocity a ton. The Pontiac heads I looked at in a direct comparison and my own B1 (Chrysler) heads were better designs, IMO.

I know that the "C" heads were supposed to be Fords answer to the Big Chief, but I haven't personally seen anything really fast with them on. :confused

I realize that you are trying to show a decent comparison with a well known BBC head, but the reason I said "whoopee" when I mention the Dart was because that head design is ANCIENT when it comes to current designs. There are conventional type heads for Chevy's that flow FAR more than that head does. Dart Big "M", Dart 18° race series, World Merlin X 16°, BMF are some that come to mind...

The Hemi I was talking about was the 426, not the current design. That engine was (and still is in Super Stock) the best BB of that era. As for modern engines, yeah it leaves a lot to be desired for high RPM gasoline racing. But the design still rules when the fuel is something other than petrol...:devil

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 10:36 PM
Older A-460's heads were not that great , the redesign ones are quite a bit better.....I would bet the heads you seen at C & S back then were Stan's???


Stan runs a BBF Thunderbird around here.....I know he has a all aluminum BBF now but, I don't know what the details on it are.....


C-460's are pretty pricey and need shaft rockers that make them cost even more.....One guy around here runs C-460's on a 605 CID that goes 7.80's N/A in a pretty heavy car....


Yea, like I said I'm not trying to or going to change anybodys mind on what they run but, I was just trying to show what's out there for the BBF since there is quite a bit of parts in the aftermarket for them.....



Today up at the engine shop I seen a 500 plus inch Mopar Hemi with a Ray Barton cross ram on it.....I will take some pics of it and post them @ BCM in a few days.....That was one BADD AZZ LOOKIN MOWTA !!!!:headbang

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 10:44 PM
This is the guy I know who wants to get into the Pump Gas Drag deal....

I don't know much about this new combo he runs but, I heard he has added bigger turbos and C heads.......



He will try again this year with the new combo, he was not picked last year.....



http://www.forcedpsi.com/imagegallery/index.php/Dans%2063%20Falcon

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 10:45 PM
Those are fine examples, but I could probably find 50 with BBCs that are as as fast if not faster, given that same parameters. Look, I'm not saying you can't go fast with a BB Ford. Lord knows there are guys going fast with FE's of all things. But it ain't the way I'd do it. I've gone the alternative route, and while fun, it was fairly costly in comparison with building a BBC. For what it cost me to build my 511 B1 engine I could have built a 572 Chevy with an aftermarket iron race block and Pontiac heads instead of the POS production 440 block I used.

For pure HP per dollar VALUE, it's almost impossible to beat a Chevy. But if you're brand loyal, then you gotta do what you gotta do...:thumbsup

Different strokes for different folks. If everybody used a Chebbie, what a boring hobby this would be...;)

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 10:51 PM
You are cool with me HITMAN !!


I could not agree with you more !


I'm sure there would be all the other brands of car fans out there that could give a "strong statement" for the brand they prefer.....I just wanted to show that the BBF's are in the mix.....



You are also correct on the numbers......EVERYBODY else besides the Chevy guys are really outnumbered pretty bad but, that is OK.....

scottie K
10-13-2006, 10:52 PM
I guess the advantage of having a chevy is the parts are cheap, the factory parts are strong , i

you compaired a 520ci incher (ford that made 750 plus hp witch is way repectable) what did it cost?

example our chevy 540 is ( 100% pump gas ) 11.5 -1comp the heads have no porting ,360 top pro line ( 1800.00) cam is 760 lift
it made 867hp / tq 773 for under 10k 9800.00 to date 3400 lb street car 8.49@161 on a med tune on hp it runs 9.70s@141

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 10:59 PM
Scotty, I respect you and your car ...


I'm glad you did not take all this as a personal thing since it did seem like a "Chevy Bash" at first.....


My idea here was just to show that a BBF can run pretty good with exsisting aftermarket parts......



No doubt a BBC is a FUGGIN GREAT DESIGN but, like HITMAN said we all have are preferences.....Mine is BBF, Hitman goes BBM and Scotty rolls BBC.......Cars and HP are a great hobby......We can all have fun going fast and if we do it with different designs that is what makes it "our way" and fun....



Scotty, the Summit 520 engine is a lot like mine......I do run a higher compression ratio of 13.5 to 1 and a little more cam,better set up carb and bigger headers but, overall it's a fairly cheap engine combo to do up.....

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 11:01 PM
Older A-460's heads were not that great , the redesign ones are quite a bit better.....I would bet the heads you seen at C & S back then were Stan's???


Stan runs a BBF Thunderbird around here.....I know he has a all aluminum BBF now but, I don't know what the details on it are.....


C-460's are pretty pricey and need shaft rockers that make them cost even more.....One guy around here runs C-460's on a 605 CID that goes 7.80's N/A in a pretty heavy car....


Yea, like I said I'm not trying to or going to change anybodys mind on what they run but, I was just trying to show what's out there for the BBF since there is quite a bit of parts in the aftermarket for them.....



Today up at the engine shop I seen a 500 plus inch Mopar Hemi with a Ray Barton cross ram on it.....I will take some pics of it and post them @ BCM in a few days.....That was one BADD AZZ LOOKIN MOWTA !!!!:headbang


Oh, I've known Stan Bartol a long time. ;) His was the first car that I was ever in that was running N2O. :wow Fun stuff, that giggle gas.;) That was back around 1990/'91...

That T-Bird of his is one fast MFer, but that engine is pretty close to 600 CID. I think it's a 598 ??? The cool thing about his car is it's such a cream-puff comfort wagon compared to some of the guys around here that claim street car status, but have strictly business interiors. Big motor aside, Stan's car is far more appealing than most race cars. I like it.

Ray Barton = Hemi God. Take a look at who's got the record in SS/A or SS/AA. It's most likely got a Barton Hemi in it. :shades

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 11:10 PM
Hitman, I want to do the same type of thing Stan did with his car....I really want to keep my car a full interior and not have it scream "race car".....I will put way more " street time " on my car than it will ever see at the track so that comfort stuff is really important.....Plus, I think the cops might "leave ya be" a little more than a fully decked out ,stickered up, lexan windowed car would passing by them....;)

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 11:20 PM
Scotty, I respect you and your car ...


I'm glad you did not take all this as a personal thing since it did seem like a "Chevy Bash" at first.....


My idea here was just to show that a BBF can run pretty good with exsisting aftermarket parts......



No doubt a BBC is a FUGGIN GREAT DESIGN but, like HITMAN said we all have are preferences.....Mine is BBF, Hitman goes BBM and Scotty rolls BBC.......Cars and HP are a great hobby......We can all have fun going fast and if we do it with different designs that is what makes it "our way" and fun....



Scotty, the Summit 520 engine is a lot like mine......I do run a higher compression ratio of 13.5 to 1 and a little more cam,better set up carb and bigger headers but, overall it's a fairly cheap engine combo to do up.....


Actually I'm into Fords these days, but not big blocks. My engine of choice is about half the size (or smaller) of some of these things. But my RWHP is only about 70 shy of what Scotty's 540 made on nuts. Through cast iron manifolds. Mine runs on pump gas too...;)

DynoTom
10-13-2006, 11:24 PM
But my RWHP is only about 70 shy of what Scotty's 540 made on nuts. Through cast iron manifolds. Mine runs on pump gas too...;)

Daaaayyyyyyyyyum ! !:wooo :wooo :headbang

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 11:32 PM
Hitman, I want to do the same type of thing Stan did with his car....I really want to keep my car a full interior and not have it scream "race car".....I will put way more " street time " on my car than it will ever see at the track so that comfort stuff is really important.....Plus, I think the cops might "leave ya be" a little more than a fully decked out ,stickered up, lexan windowed car would passing by them....;)

Yeah, the race-car-only garbage gets old. Whatever I do to my Cobra, I'll NEVER sacrifice the comfort options that car came with. If that means it ends up slower than it could otherwise be, then so-be-it. My power seats are comfy, my air blows cold, the heat blows hot, the rear window defroster works great, the 6cd changer stereo sounds good, the power windows and locks are nice, the brakes can actually slow the car from triple digit speeds more than once every half hour, and it can even go around corners at higher than idle speeds. It ain't the fastest, but it does what I need it to do. Now if I can just get my shifting to be consistant...:durr

HITMAN
10-13-2006, 11:50 PM
Daaaayyyyyyyyyum ! !:wooo :wooo :headbang

Check your PM's...;)